Interviews from inside Perryville

MAMA JOYCE INTERVIEW

HTMD Interview #3 w/ Joycie (1 of 2) 6/14/24

This is an interview with Mama Joyce from June of 2024. The smoking section had been temporarily closed and all smoking had to be moved to the Main Yard Rec Cage because the cops feared someone would burn down the Army tents they placed on each Yard. Mama Joyce and I sat at a table in the C Yard smoking section on Santa Cruz for this interview since it was empty. Mama Joyce is a wonderful woman who moves slowly and deliberately, and speaks the same way, with a slight southern accent. Mamma Joyce is the most respected of all the elders on Santa Cruz Unit.

SI- Mama Joyce, we'll start with the regular questions that everyone can answer before we get to some things most of us have no knowledge of. What is your political affiliation and your religion?

MJ- I don't know what my political affiliation is right now, with the two options we have (Joe Biden and Donald Trump) I just don't know. If I had to vote I just wouldn't. And I've been Catholic all my life.

SI- What is you sexual preference?

MJ- I'm a straight female. I've never been with a woman in here is out there, I'm strictly dickly.

SI- What is your race and where do your people come from?

MJ- Heinz 57. I wanted to do a family tree but never did. My mom's side is from Ireland but my dad is darker.

SI- Mama Joyce, how many years have you been in prison?

MJ- 36 years, I'm an interstate compact from Delaware, I got here to Perryville in 1991.

SI- Do you have an out date?

MJ- I'm a Lifer.

SI- Natural Life?

MJ- Yes.

SI- Did you appeal?

MJ- Yes, when I was first sentenced. I had a 5 week long trial and the jury took 3 weeks to deliberate.

SI- Did you think you'd be found guilty?

MJ- No. I claimed innocence, I still do. My co-defendant, husband at the time, told me I had to testify or he'd do something to my family, and I knew he had the power to do it. The jury didn't want to give me guilty on an F1 (1st Degree Murder/ Felony 1) they only wanted to give me Accomplice. I knew I was going down when the judge told the jury they could only go for the F1.

SI- Mama Joyce, you've been in prison 36 years, the public thinks prisons treat inmates better than they used to, we know that is not true. In what ways have you seen the prison decline most in the last three decades?

MJ- Back in the day DOC ran everything, the Store, the food, everything belonged to DOC. There weren't outside contracts for everything. Staff were not as disrespectful as they are now, if you had something you needed to take care of, you could just go to them and they treated inmates like people. Cell changes were allowed when people couldn't live together so there was less violence. We had keys to our own cells. There were no blanket punishments.

SI- What initiated the negative downfall?

MJ- We had a DW from Illinois that was really good. After that we got Director Chuck Ryan in 2001, that's when things got really, really bad.
They took all our stuff away.

SI- What stuff did they take away?

MJ- Chuck Ryan made it so everything had to be clear (see through plastic appliances/electronics). Before Chuck families could send TVs, and they could send three 25 pound food boxes. We had Coleman ice chests, crock pots and curling irons. Chuck Ryan took away everything.

SI- What was Medical like back then?

MJ- You could put in an HNR (Health Needs Request form) and be seen by a Doctor, Dental or whatever you needed all in one building on Santa Maria (Unit).

SI- What do you think contributes to the ways staff treat us now that differs from 36 years ago?

MJ- These staff, it's all about power with them. Disrespectful cops train new cops to be the same way. Sometimes when you're used to them being one way, they flip, that's what's sad.

SI- At what point did the cops start becoming so disrespectful?

MJ- Under Chuck Ryan. He was bad, the DWs got worse, and then the cops got worse too.

SI- Do you think our staff treat us bad because of Central Office? Do you think discontent trickles down?

MJ- I was here, then on Lumley, then back here (Cruz) and I know it's gotten worse over here. It feels like we're living in a dictatorship.

SI- Even with Swane?

MJ- Yes, because we don't see her enough. When I got over here I had to fight for everything. We shouldn't have to fight so much for every little thing. Even when they say to go through the chain of command, no one wants to be bothered. I even had to fight to get my wheelchair.

SI- What else is different?

MJ- There wasn't as many fights as there are now, there's always fights now, every time you look around. The disrespect is all the way around.

SI- What jobs did they have here that are different from what we have available now?

MJ- I had a Data Entry job, and back then you could have 2 jobs if you wanted to. Everything with jobs has changed so much.

SI- What's different from the food?

MJ- Back then you could go into the kitchen and order sunny side up eggs, or whatever kind of eggs you wanted, and the girls would cook them. There was real toast and biscuits. There was rotisserie meats and breads.

SI- How did that work with the chow schedules?

MJ- Back then every yard had a kitchen and we could just go in. It wasn't like now with one kitchen for the whole Unit.

SI- Do you think our prison is ran strictly as a money making machine?

MJ- Yes, take a look at this (pointing to the Army tent they set up as a cooling station). The ACs won't be up and working until probably November. And what do you think is going to go on in there (referencing the tent again)?

SI- Do you think that inmates can make changes to how we are treated and how the prison is ran? If yes, what would it take for that to happen?

MJ- Yes, I think we could make a difference. I think...back to staff again... they would have to be not so happy to give tickets. Ticket this, ticket that, all day. The cops are way too ticket happy, they have terir rules and regs, but they don't take into consideration what it's like. Give them a week locked in cell. The inmates could run this place better. Staff have no consistency.

SI- After 36 years in the inmate population, what do you think it would take for inmates to stick together?

MJ- It's never going to happen. Years ago when the cops were going to stop room visiting, back when we were allowed to go into each others cells and watch TV or eat or whatever with other people, they stopped that. The girls all decided to do a walk, like a march for their rights, only 5 showed up out of the hundred that had said, "We'll do it! We'll do it!" The DW came down and accused the 5 of us that stayed with it of "attempting to start a riot" and we went to the Hole.

SI- Why do you think no one showed up?

MJ- They were afraid their make-up would get taken away. They were afraid the cops were going to come in and tear the place up.

SI- Have you ever seen a change made by inmates standing together in 36 years?

MJ- One time. Our electric and water were turned off. We needed water and we wanted bottled water. Everybody refused to lock down. Everybody.

SI- How long did it take the cops to comply with your demand?

MJ- One hour. We stood strong, all of us. I'm the type if I believe in something I'm going to stand strong on it.

SI- What do you think it would take to get the population to care more about change than comfort?

MJ- A lot of women are trying out to go do that same things they did that brought them here, I've heard them. These girls have never gotten love in their lives, they done know what love is. They need to be talked to, to be shown that someone cares. They have such resentment, it's sad. I grew up when people stood up for things, people stood up for what they believe in. These girls need love.

SI- You say that the girls need love? Do you think we, the elders and the Lifers, should implement some type of Adopt A Brat program?

MJ- We used to have a program where the kids came in that Scared Straight Program for us to talk to them, to tell them what it's really like. When it started working, they stopped the program.

SI- What about inside, if we tried once they come inside as convicts?

MJ- Yes, I do it already, I try to take in some new ones, to show them love, but some people tell me to stop. Sometimes the girls just need someone to listen to them.

SI- Why would anyone want you to stop that?

MJ- They don't like that it takes away from them. A lot of people are selfish. I'm going to keep doing what I do and keep on caring for others.

SI- What is the primary objective of your life?

MJ- Well, I've lost my mother, my father, my sister, and my daughter. I've got grand children and great grand children that I've never seen. I want to see them.

SI- Do you have a way to try to make that happen?

MJ- I've talked to my granddaughter...it takes so long to get anything done here. You didn't used to have to have to put in applications, people just came in to see you. You could just call people.

SI- What else do you want to do with your life Mama Joyce?

MJ- I like to learn new things. I've had 2 strokes. They said I'd never walk again. I couldn't use my left side at all, my brain is damaged. If we got interrupted I'd have to ask you what I was talking about.

SI- I've recently seen the smartest people I've ever met in my life do that Joycie, I think you're just fine.

MJ- I'm the type of person that I love everybody, I don't care what you've done or what religion you are. I love people for who they are. That's what I want to do with my life, love people.

INTERVIEW WITH DILLON

Shajiyah interviewing Dillon Vermuele #249024 in Dillon's cell, C31-07, Santa Cruz Unit, Monday 5/26/25 after 4pm Count cleared

SI - Before we start I want you to know that this interview will be public on unnaturallife.org and the pigs from down here

from lowest level up to Central Office could see it some point. Is that OK?

DV - Yes.

SI- And I need you to know unnatuallife.org might develop into a full 'fuck the police' type site designed to get the voices of

specifically lifers and long timers out. Is that OK?

DV - Yes.

SI- How long have you been down and what is your sentence?

DV - I've been down 16.5 and I have Natural Life. Life With Out Parole.

SI - Where else have you done time?

DV - CIW, CRC, VSP, and Chowchilla.

SI - How much time have you done in your life and how old are you now?

DV - I've done...? All the time I've served? 40 years all together. And I'm 68 years old. If I had known about Arizona I

would have taken the plea for 7 years.

SI - Dillon. You refused to sign a plea for 7 years so they gave you Natural Life?

DV - Yes. And no one would help me. No one had funding to help me. They said a first year law student could have won

my case.

SI - Tell me about this prison.

DV - This prison is inconsistent. I've been in other prisons and I have much in my life to compare this shit to. This

place...I've never seen anything like this shit in my life. No other prison even comes close to being as crappy as this

prison.

SI - What is wrong with this prison?

DV - The staff are disrespectful. They make our time harder. The don't have to do that. I had been out 20 years so I wasn't

institutionalized like the people coming in now. In California you do a day and get a day, they are 50%. I was out 20 years

and got a DUI in 2001. Then I got here. In Max... In Max...

SI - Dill, what happened in the Hole? That's what you mean by Max, right? 30 yard?

DV - Yes. In Max I experienced the most suffering. After 36 years without having a nervous breakdown I had one in Max. I

was assaulted by staff. I had a nervous breakdown. The ACLU has been fighting that assault for almost 7 years.

SI - How did staff treat you when they realized you were getting help from the ACLU?

DV - First they turned the water off in my cell and took all my toilet paper. Then when my toilet was off they fixed it so

when the girls around flushed all their piss and shit and toilet paper came up out of my toilet onto my floor. It came up into

my room. It flooded my floor. They left my cell flooded with piss and shit for 48 hours. On graves (graveyard shift) A Seargent came to my cell to see why I wasn't eating and saw my cell. I hadn't eaten for 14 days since the assault. I was

scared. They had roofied me in my meals. That Seargent that checked on me would stay late in the mornings to bring me

food after that so I could eat.

SI - Do you remember Smilez? (Cynthia Apkaw killed in the Hole in 2015. Listed as suicide.)

DV - Smilez had seen the cops assault me. She had seen the officers enter my room. She could see my cell from hers.

When she saws my body afterwards she told me she had seen them. She saw what they did to me. Thomas (female red

hair), Multer, and Angus (female brunette) had tried to help me but Medical refused to help. Admin put me on watch to

investigate the accusations. They took my letter I wrote to the ACLU and my letter to my POA (power of attorney). They

opened both letters, which were legal mail, and then extracted me from my cell. They put me on watch with no I.D. for 21

days. On graves 2 cops would come in and threaten me. They would tell me no one would miss me. They said no one

knew where I was and so I should just kill myself.

SI - Did they kill Smilez?

DV - Yes. They killed Smilez. Smilez, was my only witness and they killed her. And some good officers got fired over

Smilez.

SI - How did you act after the assault?

DV - I would crawl under my bunk and hide there. I was under there hiding. I was so scared he was going to get me. He

usually made sure his keys were loud and his radio was loud, most times. But when he was going to assault me he was

quiet. He was so quiet.

SI - Is he still here? Or the others?

DV - I dont know where the main one is? He was here up until I came to Medium. It was fucked up, Angel, it was so

fucked up. My God. Two of them still work on Lumley.

SI - What year was this?

DV - 2015

SI - How did it stop?

DV - When they brought Jodi Aries in she had some people with her. Reporters or lawyers or something. I started

screaming, "Help! Help! Nobody knows I'm back here! Theyre holding my hostage! Nobody knows what happened to

me!". Maybe they were reporters? Maybe not lawyers, because they asked questions. I got some letters out and nobody

knows how. Then DW Scott let me off watch.

SI - Perryville right now. This Programmification / Humanization shit they are doing. Do you think we should get serious

about educating the kids coming in?

DV - Yes. There's so many young kids coming in. And the young cops are so easy to pursue. They are so quick to do

favors for the kids. They are too easy...

SI - Is that a bad thing? Pliable, weak, persuadable cops?

DV - Yes, it is bad. These kids need to have a safety net. They need education and business training. They have no

where to go when they get out. They are homeless now. They get out to the street and what can you do then? All these

kids can do is prostitute, do home invasions or sell drugs. Yes, its a bad thing. They aren't learning anything. They are just

hustling dumb cops. They need businesses that will hire them. They need training. Day labor won't give them a place to

sleep. This isn't how to do time.

SI - You are describing a cycle Dillon. Do you think it is by design that people have nothing to do except return to crime?

DV - Yes. In this State definitely. If they can't take the ones we call Polly Programmers, and keep them out, no one can

stay out. They can't even stay out. They programs don't work. They aren't supposed to. In here people get a job for 10¢

an hour. In other States people make dollars not cents. Without inmates nothing works in here. Inmates run this place.

Inmates do everything. If we stopped working they'd have to work. The food, the grounds, the trash, everything. Without

us nothing could get done. But they pay us 10¢? Arizona makes it so you have to have Mandatory testing and a GED to

make more that 10¢ an hour. One journalist went to Florence and Lewis... I can't remember which one...?

SI - Was it Jimmy?

DV - I don't think so, I think it was David...I dont remember? He visited old men, Lifers, who were no threat to society. He

said where they were was filthy, a filthy Medical Unit. He said, "When did humans stop having compassion?". It was in the

paper back then. That's what he ended his article with, "When did humans stop having compassion?"

SI - What is another problem?

DV - The officers do a lot of racial profiling. They don't need a reason to do it. They have fucked up lives out there and

they come in here and take it out on us. They see a system that doesn't work and they do whatever they want. If you talk

to any officer thats been here more than ten years they just want to retire. They just want to get out. The higher ups treat

staff bad. Then the low staff treat us worse.

SI - What could make this place run better?

DV - Most prisons have one Warden and one Deputy Warden. Not a Deputy Warden for every Unit.

SI - And we have 6 or 7 Dws ?

DV - Yeah, and that's messed up. Nothing can be consistent like that. Nothing is run the same Unit to Unit.

SI - Do you think moving Unit to Unit dramatically increases our trauma?

DV - Yes.

SI - Do you think they do that to purposely increase our trauma?

DV - They do it to increase our pain. They love to make us as uncomfortable as possible. They want us miserable. We are

here for Life. We get here and they tell us, "Settle in!" We do what we can, we have crafts, and art...then they come in and

they shake and throw all our stuff away. Nothing lethal, no weapons...they say they take our stuff because there are too

many fights, or too many cry babies. We need Yard Reps to take our complaints up there for us. Town Hall was supposed

to be that but it ain't.

SI - Are there any inmates up front who represent the general population?

DV - No. They pick the young ones, and Dre...she's on her own trip, just a very good manipulator. They like selfish

inmates who don't do any serious time.

SI - If you could have anything in here what would it be?

DV - An entertainment center for my TV, bible, folders and cup of pens. So all my stuff is together.

SI - Do you mean the entertainment centers people make out of cardboard on the yard?

DV - Yes. Mine was taken in the last shake. Cuen and Lowe said they are waiting for word from Central if we can have

entertainment systems just the size of our banker boxes.

SI - Dillon, do you think you will ever get out of here alive?

DV - Yes. My hope is in Katie Hobbs. She has an excon, Carrie, who went to work for the ACLU. Now she is telling Katie

what is really going on. Katie knows how the cops block the people from seeing everything. She knows how they only

show the people the inmates up front who would never help us. They'll never let anybody walk this whole motherfucker.

They won't ever see us own here.

SI - Do you think female inmates will ever work together to fight for our rights?

DV - Yes. We just need more consistent civility. Us older inmates need to get back to reading body language, to paying

attention when the kids aint right, not talkative or whatever. Us old timers, we're just waiting for God to call us home, you

know? And the kids got nothing but drama. We have to stop fighting each other and direct all that energy and anger

towards the real problem.

SI - Amen

INTERVIEW WITH COVER GIRL

Shajiyah interviewing Anesha "Covergirl" Bright #200734 on Main Yard of Santa Cruz Unit on 6/2/25 after Ice Call at approximately 8am.

SI - Before we start I want you to know that this interview will be public on unnatural-life.org and the pigs from down here up to Central Office will see it. Is that OK?

CG - Yes.

SI - My questions will seem scattered, is that OK?

CG - I know how you think Sister. Thats fine.

SI - OK, how old were you when you first got locked up?

CG - 13 years old.

SI - Where all has be you been locked up?

CG - Besides Arizona I've been in jail in Florida, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts and Texas.

SI - When did you first come to prison in Arizona?

CG - September 29th 2006. I had a six year sentence but I cut my girlfriend and got another six years

SI - You shanked your girlfriend?

CG - Yes. I got a new Premeditated Aggravated Assault charge. My bunkie said she saw me making shanks two weeks before.

SI - When you do time, why do you hang out with Lifers?

CG - Because you guys move differently.

SI - How do we move differently?

CG - You guys are calmer. You are more settled. You do your time and don't let time do you.

SI - This is going to be public, Sis. I need you to explain what "do time and don't let time do you" means to people who have never been down who might read this.

CG - OK. When people do time they control the time. They control how they move through that time. They are thoughtful, aware. They control who they interact with for reasons non Lifers don't even think about. People who let time do them are rowdy, into drama, depressed and all that shit. I don't know how to explain it...

SI - You doing great.

CG - Non Lifers are different ...they whine, and complain about their time. They can be sneaky. There are a couple sneaky Lifers but we all know to stay away from Officer-Inmates, pigs-pets. Those ones complain about their time too. Real Lifers...we never hear you guys complaining about your time. We don't see you guys sad and depressed, or walking around stupid.

SI - How do you feel when you stop through and then go home and leave us here?

CG - It makes me extremely sad for a long time. It hurts.

SI - Do you keep in contact with your friends?

CG - I always keep in touch with you. I will never leave you. Even though I get out.

SI - Why is it important to keep in touch with your people inside?

CG - Because I don't ever intend to come back. I will never see you again. I don't ever plan on coming back so I feel like I am leaving you behind for the rest of my life. I want to keep updating you on what's going on with me. On what's going on in the world you can't see. So many people have left you. I won't do that.

SI - Why do you think the American Injustice System exists? Do you think it deters crime, or protects society?

CG - It exists to make money. If you're rich enough you can commit any crime. They will put a couple rich people in prison, only if forced by the public. But the Criminal Justice System is not about truth, or justice, or crime. It is all about money.

SI - What do you think it would take for people to stop snitching on each other?

CG - Nothing but death will stop them.

SI - This situation yesterday... Do you think theyve been snitching this whole time? (Two accused snitches allegedly got beat up by several people and were removed from the Unit for their safety.)

CG - Yes, they was snitching the whole time. It finally caught up with them.

SI - Is someone a snitch who tells on someone once?

CG - No. Snitches live their lives doing it. Like Dre.

SI - Do you think it is possible to have a community where people don't tell on each other?

CG - No. It's not possible. Snitches would have to experience being told on to understand. A lot of people don't tell on people because they know how it feels.

SI - Do you think they tell because they believe pigs are better than inmates?

CG - Yes. I think a lot of people think that. A lot of people don't understand that cops are just as big of criminals as inmates. They just haven't been caught.

SI - Do you want pigs to be caught and put in prison?

CG - Hell no! We don't want that shit down here with us.

SI - Back to where we shifted gears, in the Criminal Injustice System, what percentage of people could cops put in prison without snitches?

CG - Maybe 25%. They're stupid. They need snitches. Prisons couldn't fill the beds without snitches. They can't figure shit out on their own.

SI - Shifting. Do you think if more women became politicized and sued the prisons pigs would behave differently?

CG - Yes. The pigs and the whole system would run differently. I don't know why we always wait for the men to sue? Yes, if there's enough lawsuits things would be unveiled, revealed. They'd have to change.

SI - Is that snitching?

CG - No. It is not snitching. We aren't taking them to Criminal Courts. Snitching would be talking to Detectives to get the cops or staff arrested. Suing is what *they* call justice. That's their rules. They'd rather us sue than give them what we call justice.

SI - If I sue you, would that be snitching?

CG - No. That's not criminal.

SI - When little five-foot-one 110 pound Anna got raped in the Mail Room by the two cops and told, was that snitching?

CG - She didn't snitch that off, her bunkie did. And yes, that is snitching. Anna should just cut their dicks off. Or bit them off.

SI - Everybody isn't capable of being so practical in traumatic moments. And everyone isn't capable of the violence required to fight back. Not everyone can fight back. And those are both big cops.

CG - Rape is criminal. If she sues the rapists or the prison it is not snitching. They didn't go to jail so maybe it isn't snitching...

SI - There are people who believe anything we do to pigs, in any way, at any time is justified. And since pigs are the epitome, the purest essence, of snitches then telling on them is required. You disagree?

CG - I've never been raped. You were mad when our sister got raped by Officer Brother back in '13 or '14 and he got taken off the yard.

SI - I was mad because the percocet wouldn't be coming into the Hole and people would be sick. And I had to be educated by sisters brothers. I had to be schooled on the fact that whatever we say about them cannot be snitchin because of the foulness of their position.

CG - I don't deal with all that syndicate shit. Its too much.

SI - Neither do I. Do you think if more people were educated on the inherent foulness of the System and its components people would be less willing to snitch on each other?

CG - Yes. They'd realize cops are the biggest criminals. They'd realize what cops actually get away with by having their little badges. They'd see how bad cops really are for the world.

SI - If pigs were sentenced and put in a cell, how long do you think it would take for them to realize what they truly are? What they've truly done to people?

CG - Immediately. They'd see how we are treated from our perspective. They'd see there is no excuse for this shit. They'd see how fucked up they are as humans.

SI - You give them a lot of credit Sis.

CG - I do?

SI - Yes. Do you think Lifers should be treated differently?

CG - Yes. I think they should be allowed to be comfortable. The State makes much money off of you guys they should leave you guys the fuck alone. You guys move different, you should be respected. You could kill them easily with little consequence and you guys don't. You leave them alone, they should leave you alone. And they shouldn't move you guys around to hurt you like they do. You are here for the rest of your lives. They should take care of your medical, spiritual and mental needs. You live differently. All of you guys, except the greedy snitches like Dre stay away from cops. The cops should respect that. They should leave you guys alone unless you approach them for a specific reason. They should recognize you guys are stronger than them, and most of you are smarter than them. They shouldn't fuck with Lifers like they do.

SI - If you could have anything while you are here, what would that be?

CG - For you to be free.

SI - Stop that shit Covergirl. If you could have anything...

CG - Your freedom. I want you to be free.

SI - ...any tangible item in your cell, in prison...

CG - OK, ok! A minifridge.

SI - A clear, see-through minifridge?

CG - Yes.

SI - What do you think it would take for inmates to work together?

CG - To come to one accord which I can't see females ever doing. Women would have to understand that just because most cops have dicks they are not really men. Women would have to stop looking up to what they think are men. We'd have to come together. Everyone would have to agree that we are us, and they are them. And we are better than them.

SI - How do we do that?

CG - I don't know, Sister.

SI - How do we remember that pigs don't ever have our best interest at heart?

CG - We study history, like that guy you talk about tells us. We study it, we learn it, we teach what we learn to others. Especially the kids. History shows us what these systems do. They destroy.

SI - That guy I talk about says that history doesn't repeat itself, people repeat history. You think we can break abusive cycles?

CG - Yes. And one day I will get enough money to free you.

SI - Allah made me to fight from in here. Don't give those freaks your money. I'll stay.

CG - Then prison has to go.

SI - Yes, prison has to go.

INTERVIEW WITH MELISSA

Shajiyah interviewing Melissa Loyd #341484 in A21-10 on Santa Cruz Unit, 6/3/25 between 0900 and 1000.

SI - It has taken us a long time to coordinate our schedules to be able to do this. It's funny how people with jobs in here think they are busier than people who work every second of their day.

ML- I know! I'm glad we were able to finally get together!

SI - Before we start I want you to know that this interview will be public on unnatural-life.org and the pigs from down here up to Central Office will be able to see it. Is that OK?

ML- Yes. That's what I want. They should see it.

SI - Tell me about your time.

ML- I am 45, down almost 10 years since 2016, sentenced to 35 years, 1st time down.

SI - Since this is your first time down, tell me about your first impression of prison.

ML- My first impression of prison...well... I would say very isolated and very territorial. The higher ups are territorial. They deffinately don't like to be challenged.

SI - How are the higher ups territorial? Give me an example.

ML- When they are doing their things...Let's start with the fact that they are unprofessional. They are unprofessional and they don't follow their own policies. They don't respect their own policies. They are very territorial...they say things like, "This is my prison!" If you don't comply with what they say after you've become a target they are extremely territorial. Even if you are breaking no rules.

SI - What do you think we could do to change that?

ML- It would be nice if inmates actually stuck together and demanded adequate treatment. We could actually work towards reentry. This prison is getting paid for reentry and rehabilitation classes. But they prevent that from happening. We are being deprived.

SI - I see many rehabilitation classes and reentry classes happening. Do those classes not do what they claim to do?

ML- Those classes are just another way for the Department to make money. They are just collecting resources. There are no genuine classes for rehabilitation and reentry. I can count on one hand how many programs are real. There should be proof.

SI - How can you tell the real classes from the fake ones?

ML- For one, the real classes make sure they say things that make sense. When they say those things there is follow-up. There will be a support system in place if they are genuine. And they'll do what they say they are going to do. Really do it. Not just say they are going to do it. Every step will be tended to. The Department focuses on knocking you down. And if you get up and take a step up they see you as arrogant. They'll move you to break you down. They want you to stay down. Theyll continue to try to break you. They are paid criminals.

SI - Do you mean Admin are paid criminals? Or cops? Or the officer-inmates/ pigs-pets who work for them?

ML- All of them. It starts all the way at the top. The whole system is broken from the very top. They want to hurt people and get a check. They don't care about anyone. They won't even talk to me. I get their backs. I take that as a compliment.

SI - How do some inmates facilitate staff abuse?

ML- (beautiful laugh and a preacheresque...) Welllllll...So this is one of my favorite topics! If an inmate who is jealous of your intelligence or your will or your integrity or dignity or humility or maturity they will team up with the higher ups and snake-ishly...

SI - snake-ishly is the perfect word...

ML- yes, they snake-ishly, mmm, come on now! They snake-ishly begin to make you a target with Admin. They will do everything they can to prevent you from effectively and productively living your life. They want to take your support and destroy you. They want you to die. They want to rob you of your strength and your will to live. They want to rob you of the traits they cannot have.

SI - As you know, I use your story a lot to warn people against the dangers of officer-inmates/ pigs-pets who harm the population. What is the reason for those inmates having so much power to harm us?

ML- Fraternizing. I have experienced absolute hell due to inmates and their fraternizing. I have even gotten a fake ticket written up on me by an inmate.

SI - How do these administrative/ officer inmates get so much power?

ML- I believe the administrative officers inmates get so much power because they use the rest of us. They are quiet. They are sneaky. They are snake-ish. They keep the staff's secrets about what they do to us. It's an I scratch your back, you scratch mine situation. The inmates seek power to knock everyone else down. They seek to steal peace. To kill solace. That's how we end up with abuse after abuse after abuse. They couldn't hurt us so bad without inmate help.

SI - Didn't they move you?

ML- Yes. They moved me several times. They mocked me. They mocked me, they gaslighted me. They are disgusting. I still have officers who mock me over what she did. They still mock me for what happened with that move from C yard to this yard.

SI - How long ago was that?

ML- Almost a year? Or a year? How long has it been?

SI - I don't keep time well. It could have been a year? Did an officer-inmate have you moved?

ML- Absolutely. She had me fired from jobs with her fraternizing. No investigation, no questions, no nothing. All because I had the audacity to walk with my head high. Because I won't let them break me down. And mostly because I don't break others down. That's the biggest thing that makes me a problem inmate.

SI - You are a problem inmate because you wont break down other inmates?

ML- Absolutely. I carry myself in a way they should. I am professional. Being more professional than them makes me entitled or arrogant in their eyes. They basically want me to not talk, to be silent. I approach them respectfully and I get nothing but disrespect. They say I am problematic because I have concerns. I see problems and I voice issues. I cannot be heard except by a low-level pro-inmate cop.

SI - Do we have any pro inmate staff in Admin on Cruz?

ML- No. But we did.

SI - Swane?

ML- Yes, Swane and Mensa. But they crossed over. If I have an issue i am immediately cut off and dismissed. I can't be heard.

SI - Yes, Mensa switched up on me too. They want us silent, compliant. Those inmates who fraternize with staff to get power over the yard, how do they manipulate situations?

ML- The behave snake-ishky. They slither...they sneak...they get the cops to do their bidding through whispers and gossip and secrets and lying. They find people who don't care enough about truth to check their lies. They find people who believe them without question. People who will just make you a target for the snake. People who will just believe whispers of demons. The difference with me is I refuse to become them. I could have everything too if I would become like them. I refuse. And I will not be intimidated. Either you are going to like me or hate me. But in will never, NEVER be like them. That's what they call rehabilitation here, working for the cops to break others. Once you are disgusting like them, you are rehabilitated. If you refuse, they mess with everything. Your life, your healthcare, your job, school... I will not fraternize. I won't.

SI - You refuse to be like Officer Acles (inmate)?

ML- (laugh) Biggest snake ever. Queen Snake. So miserable with herself. So dark. The moment she sees your light she plots on how to kill it. To kill your light. To kill you sneakily. When the higher ups are near she pretends to be respectable, they give her whatever she wants. She's so miserable. She pretends to help others but the whole time she plots, she watches everybody, she tries to know everything. Gossip helps her whisper and lie. She's never tried to help anyone but herself. She smiles through that ugly mask. Her fake smile! Her "Look at me!" mask. Whatever the higher up around wants is the act she plays. She's evil. Shes lucky we ain't on the streets.

SI - Mm, I do love when people preach to the choir. Do you think the people who serve her evil know what she really is?

ML- Yes. I do.

SI - I can't believe that. I won't.

ML- I know. But I believe they know. All of them. And because she does things for them they'll give her everything she wasnts regardless of how many of us were hurt by her sick games. She is sad. She's a selfish, selfish lady. One truly selfish individual. She might pretend to help you but the whole time she is setting you up. Before you know it you'll be stabbed in the back.

SI - Everyone? You think no one at all is safe?

ML- Just inmates. No inmate is safe. She believes she is above us. She thinks she, and staff, are smarter than all of us. She is one of them in her mind, she is prison staff.

SI - Do you think it is possible to have inmates who care about other inmates come into power like that without becoming one of the Officer Acleses?

ML- Absolutely. Honestly, I think its all about kindness. Not fake kindness though. If someone treats someone kindly, genuinely, that's contagious. But people are afraid to love in here because of retaliation. Because genuine love invites abuse.

SI - If we worked continuously towards self reliance, towards autonomy, and did all we could together as a community, without involving staff, or engaging with staff unless we have to, could we make this place better until prison is a thing of the past?

ML- 100% yes. Because, in a sense, we'd get rid of all the dark clouds. There would be air to breathe without it being sucked up from you by thieves. Most of these people shouldn't be in the positions they are in. They are petty, childish, retaliatory creatures. They are horrible people. They are a danger to society. Especially the inmate officers, they are evil. We'd be better living without them.

SI - Close your interview Melissa, please.

ML- They have tried everything possible to break me. The staff listened to the whispers of Officer Acles and they tried to break me. They tried to kill me, to kill my spirit. They don't like strong women, they hate strong Black women. They want us to shut up, to slither and lie.
I want to thank them. They didn't break me. They didn't kill me. They didn't make me shut up. They helped me to look closer at myself. They made me stronger. They tempted me to sell my soul for power, for control, for comfort. I'd rather have them pick on me, mock me, hurt me and try to kill me for trying to help myself and other people, than to ever become like them. I don't even want to appear to be like them. Their sick games have made me stronger. Now we can work on undoing the damage they have done to so many people. I thank them.

INTERVIEW WITH LIL SISTER

Shajiyah interviewing Crystal "Arij Carimbocas" #298234 in C21-04 of Santa Cruz Unit, on her 41st Birthday 6/7/25 beginning 1:32 because PRISM meeting was postponed.

SI - Before we begin I want you to know that this interview will be public on unnatural-life.org and the pigs could see it.

CC - So. Let them see it.

SI - How life ng have you been in prison?

CC - Ive been in prison since 2015.

SI - When did you first go to jail?

CC - 2012.

SI - Is this your 1st time down?

CC - Yes.

SI - Do you have a Life Sentence?

CC - Yes.

SI - What was your first impression of jail?

CC - It was very depressing. Cold. Dreadful.

SI - What was your first impression of prison?

CC - I felt like it was ridiculous. When we got to the entrance...it was big...and kind of overwhelming. Staff were unorganized. Confused.

SI - Tell me how it was overwhelming?

CC - Because I didn't know what to expect.

SI - So you did 4 years in jail before coming here. You had heard gossip, rumors and tales from people who had been to prison before? Did you think of those things when you got here?

CC - Yes I had heard of prison but I had never even been arrested before, I'd never been to jail, it was all nightmarish, surreal...but the things they told me were unbelievable to me. All they talked about was that they couldn't wait to go back to prison.

SI - You didn't believe them?

CC - I didn't believe them because it didn't make any since to me.

SI - You are in Joe Arpaio's Maricopa County Jail, right?

CC - Yes.

SI - Does it make sense now why they were in a hurry to get here?

CC - Yes.

SI - Do you think County Jail is so dreadful as a tactic to coerce people to sign pleas just to get to prison?

CC - Yes

SI - Describe some major differences between County Jail and prison.

CC - Differences are, they have cigarettes here, TV...

SI - Did you smoke back then?

CC - No...Prison has long sleeve shirts and sweatshirts. Jail made us freeze with very little to cover with. Prison has contact visits jail only has video. Prison has jobs... even if they pay 10¢ - 45¢. We have bags of coffee we can buy here. Prison has lights you can turn off and on in the cells and we are not exposed to fluorescent lighting 24 hours a day light in county as a torture tactic. We can buy razors here to shave. And there are nail clippers here and real combs...county only had little- bitty combs.

SI - So you remember a lot of people signing pleas to escape the cold, bright, miserable conditions of county?

CC - Yes, they were happy to sign pleas to escape that as fast as they could even if they were innocent.

SI - So when you got here, you say the entrance was big and overwhelming. Were you scared?

CC - A little bit, because I had never been to prison before. I think I was more nervous than scared.

SI - And you went straight to the Hole in 2015?

CC - Yes, February 2015. You were there, Smilez was there, so was Happie, Nessa, Caballa (like a female horse in spanish "Cub-eye-ya") Tiger...and Death Row's Miles and Wendy.

SI - Was Lacey Scott the DW? What were your impressions of the Hole?

CC - Yes, Scott was the DW. Let me see, I got there at night...I try to forget about stuff like this...

SI - Is this going to give you bad dreams? I will ask somethings else...

CC - No, no it's OK Ukhti...I had my jumpsuit on because I had no other clothes at all. I took it off to sleep and I got in trouble. I was so hot. They told me to put my jumpsuit back on. I wore it for 3 days until they gave me extra clothes.

SI - Did they give you pants?

CC -Yes, I got a new short sleeve a pnats, socks underwear and a bra, and a used set.

SI - Did any one tell you how long we had been able to have pants?

CC - Yes, Nessa told me that they just barely started letting us wear pants. That before I got there the women were only allowed to wear the jumpsuit.

SI - How were the staff?

CC - Ummm...they were normal to me when I first got there. I think I started noticing the staff more when I started working outside a month later. Some of them were loud, some of them, like Everhart, were just doing their jobs...but when things got crazy they got loud and mean with people. They would talk about inmates. I remember them talking about the watches, why they wanted to die, or why so and so was yelling. I remember them talking about you. I remember them talking abut you getting out of the Hole and one of the officers, Officer Fell said, "There not going to to let her out. They'll never let her out. Ever. She'll die back here." I remember wondering why he would say that? I blocked out a lot from those days. It's all a blur to me. But the staff sucked, and they were fucked up, they would traumatize people. Not Everhart or Fell, but Kramer and the others...they were terrible...they were overbearing and always yelling and treating us like we were animals. I blocked out so much...

SI - It's ok. Do you think prison makes people better?

CC - Hell no it doesn't. It makes us...it puts our minds into constant survival mode. This doesn't make us better. There is no rehabilitation.

SI - What is rehabilitation?

CC - I read that rehabilitate means to restore to normal life but prison destroys us. It destroys everything in us. It destroys our worth, our ability to function. It destroys our relationships with our families and our friends and our children. And they make it hard to have friends in here because so many people turn into rats and they work with the pigs to help them destroy us.

SI - Have you seen a change in how staff treat us in the last 10 years?

CC - No. Because if you think about it it is actually worse now. I think it is. I don't know how to explain it.

SI - Try LilSis...

CC - I don't know, the Hole is a different world from here.

SI - It is a different world. Do you think prison is fashioned to destroy us with the deliberate intention of making it impossible to stay free when released?

CC - Yes, absolutely. Our range of motion is so little, with everything, even down to our rooms. They program us for it to be impossible to adjust. They need us to be institutionalized so we come back.

SI -Tell me how they program us?

CC- With everything, times of feeding, count, all that affect us. We have to be in compliance and the constant stupid nagging about tuck your shirt in and stupid things. And the classes...all those group classes are all a lie. They help people come back with the things they teach that only focus on the negative in ourselves. They don't want us to look at the positive things in ourselves. They make us feel like a stain on society.

SI - Have you ever been in a class that made you feel like you were a valuable person?

CC - Yes, Electrical. And Dr Gomez, Dr Pasha, and Pr Grahams classes. Dr Manninen made me feel normal. So did Dr Suhail and the Yerba Matte lady. And the gorgeous Black Professors.

SI - As a Lifer, do you think ADCRR staff should treat Lifers differently than NonLifers?

CC - Yes. Because some of us are going to die here. Yes they should treat us differently. They should let us work where we want, even jobs like Televerde and MVD. I wouldn't want that, but some other Lifers might. If we don't want to work we should be allowed not to. Lifers should be allowed to do college like everyone else too. They should remove the Priority Ranking policy that makes Lifers ineligible for things.

SI - If they removed the Priority Ranking do you think most Lifers would want those things?

CC - No, I don't think most would want to...but we should all have the choice.

SI - What do you think prevents women from fighting against injustices in prison?

CC - They don't have the knowledge...they don't know what is really going on. They don't know mass incarceration is slavery. They don't know because those who have known for a long time hid that knowledge from us.

SI - Why would people hide that knowledge from the population?

CC - The people, the prisoners who had this knowledge are selfish and only care about themselves.

SI - How could them holding the knowledge benefit them in their selfishness?

CC - They think that it made them smarter to hide it from us. If they were truly smart they would share it with other people. They were scared someone would do something with the knowledge. They talk, but they do nothing. They are jealous of people who actually do things because they are cowards.

SI - Do you have any fear in speaking about what is happening inside this prison or about anyone in particular?

CC - Hell no. If we don't speak, they do stuff to us, if we do speak they do stuff to us. What's the difference?

SI - What is the most traumatic thing you've seen happen in Perryville?

CC - I had to search my mind right now...I bury those things. Sherry Tobyne's death was pretty traumatic. Remember Sis? We stood at the door and you were talking about her body down there, on the cold concrete, hour after hour. It was Sergeant Cooper and Officer Fink and Officer Cook. They had covered Sherry's body. Pigs don't usually cover dead bodies. They usually leave the breasts exposed from CRP. You were talking about...wondering about... whether they will cover your corpse when you are laid out on the concrete when you die. They covered her body and even made a curtain type thing around her body. It was strange that they respected the corpse. It was abnormal. It was moving.

SI - I remember. I wonder often how they'll treat my corpse. The way Tobyne was treated was very different from Markel flirting with that guy over the cold corpse of Hennesy last January. Or her mocking Theresa Brown's death. Why do you think it is so uncommon for pigs to show that type of common courtesy, or basic decency?

CC - Because they treat us like we are not humans. They look at us like we are some kind of filth. Like we are nothing.

SI - Do you think the inmate-officers who seek power from pigs see us as less than human too?

CC - Yes, they're minds are linked with the pigs. They see us as less than them. As if they are above us. They want that power. They seek power and control. In reality, they feel like they are worthless. And they are. That's why they kept the knowledge from us they were given so long ago. Because they know we aren't worthless. They knew we would use it to help others.

SI - What do you think we can we do to help other prisoners, and other abolitionists, besides this?

CC - We can try to get to know everyone we live around, so we can help each other and be more aware of what they are going through. And maybe we can guide them in knowledge and in education. And we can encourage them to educate themselves.

SI - Educate themselves in what exactly?

CC - In how the prison system really works. That will help them to keep going on the right path, to not support the prison system. To be aware of traps and harmful programs and not come back.

SI - If you could have one item in your cell, or for your use in prison, what would it be?

CC - I would want an iPhone.

SI - Could we look at out site on it?

CC - Yes.

SI - When you get out, which you will inshaaAllah, what do you plan to do to help end slavery?

CC - You already know what I am going to do. I am going to help you. I am going to get connected to others doing the same work with Anisa. And help people say free. I am going to help youngsters never go to prison. Theres so much I want to do. This is the best way I can imagine to serve Allah.

SI - Allahu Akbar.

CC -Allahu Akbar.

INTERVIEW WITH MAMA JOYCE PART 1 6/14/24